Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

[JP]

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum as of tonight. I am an amateur musician that has played trumpet my entire life except for the past year in which I switched to baritone. I play in a small church ensemble and a community band. I have been playing a 3v King Cleveland baritone, vintage 1960s, and am looking for an intermediate-quality horn with increased range in the lower register as well as better intonation (a few notes are quite a bit out of pitch).

I've recently been testing a new Bach B1110S. It has several features that I like - 3 water valves, 3rd valve trigger, good intonation, nice sound, solid construction, and sharp looks. However, I'm not crazy about the valves. They are scratchy/clunky and I don't know if it will disappear as the horn gets broken in. There is also quite a bit of clearance between the valve stems and the valve caps, and I can see that some of the stems are not centered in the cap opening.

Questions:
Does anyone have any experience/feedback with either the Bach B1110 or the King Legend 2280 (I'm told they're identical horns). I can't find hardly anything written about them in these forums.

Is my concern over the valves unwarranted?

How do these horns compare with the Weril H980?

Thanks much.

[Euphist]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

well, the king has a slightly larger bore size, and seems bigger in volume, less compact. the 4th valve tubing doesnt loop under all the valves on the king like the bach. about the king 2280 that i think 2-3 people in these forums play, including me, they play pretty well.

[prototypedenNIS]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Originally posted by: Euphist

well, the king has a slightly larger bore size, and seems bigger in volume, less compact. the 4th valve tubing doesnt loop under all the valves on the king like the bach. about the king 2280 that i think 2-3 people in these forums play, including me, they play pretty well.

the horns are identical now, the Bach USA euphs are no longer made in Japan.

I've played the 2280. Decent horn, open blow, pretty nice sound (but not quite what I'm used to with compensating Boosey's). I'm surprised more schools don't carry them.

[davewerden]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

I have posted a few times about the King 2280. It's a very nice non-compensating horn, probably my favorite.

There is more on this thread:

Post About Non-Comp Euphoniums

[JP]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Thanks for your responses.

How about my valve concerns expressed in the initial message? Does the scratchiness normally subside with break-in? Is this something you would be concerned about?

John

[davewerden]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

No way to know for sure about the valves without seeing them, but I often encounter valves that feel rough when new. Usually it gets a LOT better if you just wipe them down and then oil liberally with a petroleum oil. I would do this at least every day while breaking in the horn because you may have small bits of gunk and who-knows-what working through the system. The petroleum-based oils are better at flushing it out. Once it's broken in you could try a synthetic if you like or stick with the old-fashioned kind.

If there valves were gritty because of left-over machining flakes, then playing that way without cleaning them could result in excess wear.

[prototypedenNIS]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Shops where these are put together aren't always the cleanest places so sometimes there may be grit in there (dust, brass powder, buffing compund) and valves are usually lapped with lapping compund (an abrasive in an oil used to mae the valves fit right). Cleaning the valves by hand may help alot but as Dave said, it could be any number of things and we're just listing out possibilities here.

[keithbarton]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Fellow in my community band is buying a King, mostly based on the info I collected from the forum. He's been playing a King Diplomat, bell front 3valve. I told him about the King 2280. I'm interested in seeing the horn and hearing him play it. He will do fine with a non-compensating. As for the Weril, I had one of those for about a year and a half, and didn't care for it too much because it was just lightweight feeling. I couldn't get the rich, deep, sound I get from my two B&H Imperials. But on the otherside of the coin, the Weril seemed to be a well made horn but the metal was too thin, I think. Had a nice finish but don't know how long that would have held up. Dave posted a recording of me playing When Jesus Wept with my community band. That's the Weril I am playing in the recording. (the 2002 recording). 1971 recording was on a Conn.

[daruby]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

This last summer I played a King 2280 at the Blue Lake music camp (one of the other players had it). It played very well. Had an extremely responsive low range. More so than my B&H Sovereign. The mid and high didn't sing as nicely as my Besson, but was still very nice. Given the price and the fact that the King had the tuning trigger, I would probably go with a King if I were looking for a mid-priced non compensating horn. Overall, I liked it very much.

Doug

[JP]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Thanks again for the feedback. I talked to the music store owner tonight and he is going to put the horn thru his shop and relap the valves, etc. Then I'll give it another go.

Keith - is your song recording on this forum?

Doug - do you live in MA?

John

[RickF]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Hi John,

I'm not Keith, but yes, it's on this forum. Click on this link:

When Jesus Wept

Scroll down till you see Dave Werden's post. From Keith's description, it's the mp3 link dated 2002. Beautiful piece btw.

[keithbarton]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

It's a crowd pleaser. Play it and see how quiet the audience becomes. Hey, you guys make me want to see about a King !!! Seriously, the King Diplomat bell front seems to be a very well made horn from what I can tell. Joints look good, nice finish appears durable, metal seems to be of a good thickness. Horn has a solid feel to it. I would think the 2280 would be a perfect for horn for a good amatuer euffer. Probably would have a good resale value, too. And as a second comment, Dave's latest blog about playing whether or not the horn cooperates really gets to the heart of playing, in my opinion. If you know what you are doing and have motivation and if lucky some talent! you can take a lesser horn and play and sound better than someone who spent really big bucks on a euphonium but can't play worth a darn. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[daruby]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

JP - Yes I live in MA

[JP]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Keith - both sound great, and 31 years in between! Wish I could play like that.

Doug - I live in Holden MA (Worcester suburb). Where are you?

John

[keithbarton]

Bach 1110 and King Legend 2280

Thanks John. No reason why you can't play better than me is there? Just work on it. I'm sure not the best. Practice. I got a letter today from my mentor you see in the picture there with me and he said "practice does not make perfect" because he said, he played for 75 years and never was perfect !! I think he was pretty close to it, though.