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Thread: Valve Trombone

  1. #1

    Valve Trombone

    Just wondering if anybody out there could explain to me how a valve trombone works. Thanks.

  2. #2

    Valve Trombone

    On a slide trombone, when the slide is not extended the horn will sound a concert B-flat on its lowest note. You extend the slide a few inches to make the trombone sound down a half step.

    A valve trombone has the slide length fixed in its shortest length, and inserted into the slide loop is a valve section. So when you push the 2nd valve down, it detours the air a few inches, just as though you had extended the slide on a regular trombone.

    Until the late 1970's, I think that is the only kind of valve trombone there was. Then the Super-Bone was invented. This is a trombone with a valve section, but also with a movable slide that extends past the valves. You can still finger the valves to play it. Or you can move the slide. Or you can move the slide out a half-step and then play the valves in that key, which could simplify the fingerings for hard keys.

    Most valve trombones were made using valves from trumpets to make it possible to share more parts on the production line. This means the bore will be very small, about .460" (like a trumpet). Using euphonium valves was not practical because then the bore would have been too large (about .560"). A few manufacturers used/use custom-size valves to you can have a relatively normal-blowing trombone.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. Valve Trombone

    Valve trombones come in all shapes and sizes. The basic idea is to build a valved instrument with the same sound qualities as a slide trombone. The biggest determining factor would be the proportion of cylindrical to conical tubing, so a long cylindrical section is in order. This is often routed in front of the player, to look similar to a slide trombone, but that isn't necessary.

    The valve/fingering pattern is the same for a 3-valve euphonium, or any modern 3v brass instrument. The left hand grip is moved forward from the slide trombone position, because the extra valves radically changes the balance of the instrument.

    Unfortunately, most current valve trombones seem aimed at the student market. This means that there often aren't 1st or 3rd valve slides to adjust intonation with the valve combinations. Serious valve trombonists often have these added aftermarket, by a competent technician.
    Last edited by davewerden; 06-04-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  4. Valve Trombone

    In addition to the comments made by Dave and Steve, let me add that there is one trombone that has both valves and a slide. That is the Holton TR395 Superbone. This horn has a valve section that inserts between the slide and the bell sections. As a result, it has a six-position slide instead of the normal 7 positions on a regular trombone. Made famous by Maynard Ferguson, the slide/valve concept is originally credited to Don Ellis who did similar things with a slide/valve trumpet.

    Like Dave says, it uses trumpet sized valves, so is a small bore trombone (with a large 9" bell!). Since I am a Euphonium player (having started on the horn 45 years ago), I never learned slide technique, but with my embouchure, I can get a fairly dark and rich sound even though it is a small horn. I find my Superbone to be very playable. I use the Holton 6 1/2 AL that came with it (a Bach clone) and can get sounds that range from smooth and velvety (Dorsey style) to very edgy.

    Some notes are fairly stuffy and it takes some work to get a clear sound when using the valves exclusively since the tubes in the valve section are wrapped very tightly. Also, you play the valves left-handed, so that takes a bit of work. Its not a problem for me since I played cello (fingered left hand) in high-school and practiced my old Conn bell-front Euphonium by playing left handed just to work on tecnique. On the other hand, when you use the slide, it plays very nicely. I am able to "learn" slide technique and get slide sounds yet can revert to the valve section when the going gets technical.

    The horn is a professional quality horn and I use it when I need to double trombone parts in a wind ensemble and also use it exclusively in my brass quintet.

    Doug Ruby
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  5. Valve Trombone

    and the ultimate in valve trombones has to be the Cimbasso!

    I have a lovely fairly new Melton, in F, and a rather less lovely Orsi, dating from the fifties, in contra Bb.
    The Melton has a five valve set up, same as the F tuba, and the Orsi has the standard four valves.
    Absolute necessity of life in the orchestra these days, and great fun too!

    Sue

  6. Valve Trombone

    Originally posted by: dwerden
    Most valve trombones were made using valves from trumpets to make it possible to share more parts on the production line. This means the bore will be very small, about .460" (like a trumpet). Using euphonium valves was not practical because then the bore would have been too large (about .560"). A few manufacturers used/use custom-size valves to you can have a relatively normal-blowing trombone.
    I have a keen interest in valve trombones, so allow me to spew stats.
    Most valve trombones come in 2 bore sizes today. .485 ish and .500. There is a little bit of variation but almost all vbones have that bore size. If you were to compare that to current slide trombones, you'd have a King 2b (.481) and most staudent horns are .500 but to use pro horns a King 3b is .508. These are what trombonists would refer to as small bore jazz horns now, or just beginner horns.
    A symphonic tenor trombone is usually about .547, and a Bass is about .562.
    Rotary valve trombones (triple rotary), such as Miraphone and Cerveny's models have a larger bore at .512.
    Olds and Reynolds at one point made a .515 piston vbone.
    Bach uses the same valve section for their bass trumpet as their valve trombones.
    I'd also point out that companies such as Yamaha use the same size pistons for other instruments (euph and 3/4 tuba).

    Originally posted by: daruby
    ...That is the Holton TR395 Superbone. This horn has a valve section that inserts between the slide and the bell sections. As a result, it has a six-position slide instead of the normal 7 positions on a regular trombone. Made famous by Maynard Ferguson, the slide/valve concept is originally credited to Don Ellis who did similar things with a slide/valve trumpet.
    Conn also made one briefly. They come up online from time to time, Dillion's music had one.
    Maynard also had a slide and valve trumpet thingy.

  7. #7

    Valve Trombone

    denNIS,

    Thanks for the clarification. I think a lot of the ones I've seen were older, such as the one I own myself. It's nice to know that there are common models available that are not quite so constrained.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. Valve Trombone

    With a bore Size of about .460 I'd say probably very old, but in the hey day of the valve trombone (it was going to make the slide obsolete you know) the bore sizes were alot smaller.

    Even in the 60's and 70's companies like Olds/Reynolds were making bass trombones with about a .545 bore. This would now be considered a large bore tenor. As much as current symphonic trombonists strive for the sound that a large open horn can deliver, Beethoven probably wrote for something about .460 or even smaller than that. Trombonists nowadays are quite unlikely to pull out a a more historically correct horn because even the ones they started learning on are significantly bigger.

    I would assume many instruments made this type of transformation, I suppose we coule point to "euro" shank as an example to how instruments are getting bigger.

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