70s era Besson Imperial

[dbentbroad]

I'm in the market for a horn to replace my Yahmaha 321... I should have gotten rid of it years ago, but alas...

Anyways, I've come across a Besson Imperial from the 70s. All I know about it is that it's a compensating horn. The gentleman selling it is offering $1300, which sounds really good for a compensating horn that is in good shape.

I was wondering if anyone here has experience with this particular model. I've been playing on a Willson 2950 that plays like an absolute dream, but it's the University's horn, and since I'm graduating I will no longer be able to use it. I'd like to get a horn that is about of equal quality, but I'd rather not spend the $7300 list price on it.

I can't even find dimensions or anything about the horn on any website. I appreciate any/all help! Thank you!!!

[keithbarton]

70s era Besson Imperial

A Boosey & Hawkes Imperial? Not sure if there was a Besson Imperial. I have been wrong many times.
I have two B&H Imperials from the 1940s and very sweet horns.

[dbentbroad]

70s era Besson Imperial

The email from the owner says "an older Besson Imperial 4-valve compensator that was made in the late 1970s. The price for it is $1300." That's all I know

[RickF]

70s era Besson Imperial

If you're used to a Willson 2950, the Besson (or B+H) will have a smaller bore than you've been used to. Also - the leadpipe on an Imperial is probably European sized (medium) shank.

I'm with Keith on this. The only Imperial I've heard of was by Boosey and Hawkes. But these can be good horns.

Hope this helps.

[davewerden]

70s era Besson Imperial

If I remember correctly, the Besson version of the Imperial, which was identical to the Boosey, never had a model designation. At least, I tried to find a model name and couldn't get a consistent answer. Also, I don't think there was a Boosey that was NOT an Imperial.

Not totally sure about the absolute facts, but I think the issue is one of usage more than accuracy. Because the top Besson was the same horn as the Boosey Imperial, I have often heard the phrase "Besson Imperial." I believe if you are seeing a 4-valve compensating horn, it is the Imperial-level horn.

Assuming all that is correct, the horn would have had a .580" bore, a .615" compensating loop bore, and a .640" 4th-valve bore. In that era, the Besson's valve caps would have been the sharp-edged ones that I hated. The Boosey used a knurled edge, as on most modern euph's now.

[davewerden]

70s era Besson Imperial

I forgot to mention - if you are really looking at Besson's top-line model from the 70's, it is probably a pretty good buy if it's in good shape. The ones made up until about 1974 had the medium-size receiver and were thought to be a little better than the bass-trombone-size receiver that took over around 1974.

[keithbarton]

70s era Besson Imperial

dbent... I went a long time without playing and then bought a Weril which I wasn't happy with. Good as a starter horn. I was ready to look at new Bessons but when I visited my local store, the fellow had B&H Imperial from 1946 hanging on the wall. I tried it out. I was hooked on that baby. I've acquired a second B&H Imperial. I have Boosey's catalog from the early 50s and there were many instruments in the Imperial line. I don't know when B&H Imperial might have become Besson Imperials but I'd imagine there were several years of transition from one to the other and during that time, this horn you are looking at would have been a very nice horn. Dave is the expert on all that. I visited Bessons shop in London in 1970. Also played a brand new Besson Euphonium of that year. It was a very nice horn, but I don't recall it being an Imperial. Maybe this fellow will let you give it a test and if you don't like it there would be no charge to you?

[blueeuph]

70s era Besson Imperial

I own a Besson made in 1972 that has the euro shank. I got her for $850US. Overall, it plays well. I find mine has a sweet sound to it and projects well. Hopefully you can get a chance to test it.

[dbentbroad]

70s era Besson Imperial

I was wondering if it would be worth my time to drive about 3-4 hours round trip to test it out. I think I will from the reaction I've gotten so far. I think a problem of mine will be I've become spoiled by the Willson 2950... After I played on it for a year, I tried playing on my Yahmaha 321, and it felt like I was playing a trumpet.

Thanks!

[keithbarton]

70s era Besson Imperial

Let us know what happens, send a picture !!

[RickF]

70s era Besson Imperial

I was wondering if it would be worth my time to drive about 3-4 hours round trip to test it out?

Sure, I would travel that far. It's always good to try out the horn for sure.

[kevin67]

70s era Besson Imperial

Try to take a few mouthpieces with you. You should also take a friend and your wilson (or the YEP321) along to help in the comparison.

Personaly, I love the early '70 Imperials.

[davewerden]

70s era Besson Imperial

You might also check out this article if you have a chance to try out this (or any) horn:

Choosing a Euphonium

[prototypedenNIS]

70s era Besson Imperial

Originally posted by: RickFAlso - the leadpipe on an Imperial is probably European sized (medium) shank.

Depends wheteher it was after they switched to large shank or not...
if it's not a euro shank, you might want to start running from it now. My experience with these is that the 6 and 8th partial are pretty out of whack... especially from E to F#.

The Euro skanked ones have been much more tameable.

[daruby]

70s era Besson Imperial

For the most part, in the 1970's the Imperials in the US were branded Besson while the Sovereign was branded Boosey and Hawkes. The Imperial is a beautiful horn and is almost certainly a euro-shank (mine were). i played two Imperials throughout the 1970's and thought there could be non finer until I purchased my Boosey&Hawkes Sovereign (early model 967) in 1980. It was on of the first bass trombone shank horns and was much larger than the Imperial.

I remember William D. Revelli sitting in my backyard in the mid-60's telling my parents that the Besson Imperial was the standard instrument at fine music svchools like University of Michigan. I don't know when Besson/Boosey&Hawkes started making the Sovereign (later model 967) but I believ it was in the early-mid 70's.

Doug Ruby (still playing my 26 year old Sovereign)