Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

[baritoneplayer2]

Hello everyone. This is my first post here. I have been playing the euphonium for almost 5 or so years now (I'm 16 years old/sophmore in high school), and am currently playing on a Wilson 2950 (gold). I have been playing on a 51D for almost 4 years now I guess, and am currently on a 51D large shank gold, but am looking for a change. The mouthpieces that I am considering are the SM series, specifically the SM3.5 and the SM3. From what I have read so far, these mouthpieces have the same rim diamter, the SM3 has a slightly deeper cup depth, and the SM3.5 has a bigger backbore or something. Am I correct? I want to step up from my 51D, not that I really have any major complaints against it, but I think it might be time for a change for the better. I am really not sure which I should get, though. I'm not really a bad player (I'm in the top band at my high school, which is Allen, Texas, and we marched in the Tournament of Roses this year), but I am not sure if the SM3 will be too much for me. Will there be a big range reduction innitialy from switching (I usually don't have much trouble hitting an A flat or B flat above the staff)? Any opinions on these mouthpieces from personal use? Thanks in advance for all of the help.

[mbrooke]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Why do you think switching to a new mouthpiece will be a change for the better? Many very fine players, including Brian Bowman, Roger Behrend and Mark Fisher have had great success with the 51D. I don't think that it is a problem to try new mouthpieces, but you need to have an idea of what your are trying to accomplish by switching mouthpieces. If you don't, you'll end up on the "mouthpiece merry-go-round." Also, you should have someone, preferably your private teacher, objectively tell you how the mouthpiece affects your sound.

Mike

[blueeuph]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Any thoughts of trying out a SM4 instead of a SM3.5 or a SM3? Atleast in my opinion, the SM4 would be a step up from a shilke 51D if you were to switch mouthpieces. The SM3 would be 2 steps up if one can handle the mouthpiece and don't worry about it if one can't handle it. Though I never done any marching, I would think the SM3 would be a bear to play with for marching. There's still a fair number of players who use the Shilke 51D and had success with the mouthpiece.

[davewerden]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

mbrooke makes a good point. You need to have a pretty clear idea of what improvements you think are needed before looking at other mouthpieces. Switching may be a good thing for you, but a good teacher could help you decide on a strategy.

I personally like the Wick 4AL because it gives me a large tone with a singing quality. However, those advantages come at the expense of more fuzziness in my sound. The 51D clears up the fuzziness but doesn't have the sound I want. I have tried a lot of other mouthpieces including the Mead series, but I still prefer the standard Wich 4AL. But Roger Behrend was with me in the Coast Guard Band for about 5 years and his tone was wonderful on the 51D. For him that was the best choice. For me the 4AL is the best choice. Part of that may be due to different physical characteristics between Roger and me, and part of it may be due to our own idea of euphonium sound quality. Anyway, Roger chose the 51D because it gave him what he was seeking; I chose the 4AL for the same reason. What are you seeking?

By the way, there are different versions of the 51D. The older ones had a tighter backbore, and I really did not like the high range restrictions that caused. Newer ones are better. Many manufacturers besides Schilke make a 51D mouthpiece, but they are not identical.

You might also remember advice from Claude Gordon. He was asked about this and offered the following advice (I'm paraphrasing from memory):

"Take all the mouthpieces you own and put them in a brown paper bag. Get in a rowboat and row to the middle of a lake. Reach into the bag with your eyes closed and pull out a mouthpiece. Throw the bad with the rest of the moutpieces into the lake. Then go home and practice the one you pulled out of the bag."

His point is that some people go crazy always trying to find the perfect mouthpiece, when they might be better off just working with what they have. Certainly there are reasons for switching mouthpieces, but you need to know what you are looking for in your playing before you go down that road. You should also be aware that sometimes a new mouthpiece can feel really nice as you are testing it. It's only after you buy it and play it for a week or so that you may learn it causes you a problem of some kind.

The Claude Gordon book is on this page if you are interested:

Resources for Teaching Yourself

[mbrooke]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Dave,

I spoke with the lead mouthpiece designer at Schilke and he told me that the throat and backbore has never been changed. Anyway, one thing that I found that really helped the 51D was to have it made into a screw rim to fit Doug Elliott rims. I found that using a larger rim really helped open up the sound. I'm also going to have Schilke retool the 51D to have a larger throat and a Schmitt backbore. Anyway to baritoneplayer2, this is definetly a route I would recommened to someone if you have a mouthpiece that you generally like, but that has some issues. Some custom work may fix you up nicely!

Mike

[davewerden]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Mike,

While I don't want to disagree with the Schilke guy, I have a very old 51D that plays very differently from the new ones. I think I remember actually measuring the throat and eyeballing the backbore (OK, that last part is not really scientific) and finding those features different from the newer models. I also thought I had some memory of someone telling me that there was a difference in the design.

Maybe my memory on that is bad (wouldn't be the first time!), but I can say with certainty that this old 51D does not play nearly as open as the new ones. I bought it in the 70's after a conversation with Brian Bowman, which I'm guessing was in the 70's. Do you think the Schilke designer has been with the company that long?

[JTJ]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Mike mentions rim size, something which euphoniumists do not pay enough attention to. Finding the correct rim size for your chops is often a major variable in opening up the sound and adding that singing quality which David mentions.

[mbrooke]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Dave,

I don't think that he has. It's always possible that his history is wrong. I haven't used a 51D in a while. I'm curious to see how opening up the throat and backbore changes its performance. It's interesting to note that most of the new euphonoium mouthpieces, such as the Loud LM-25 and LM-20, the Warburton DT and the Gidding and Webster have throats that are .290" or larger, while the 51D has a throat of .277". I'm sure that has to a lot to do with the stuffy sound that a lot of people complain about.

Mike

[baritoneplayer2]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

Wow guys thanks for all of the help so quickly. And blueeuph, we have different horns for marching and concert seasons, and our marching horns are all small shank, and I just use a small shank 51D that I have from middle school on it. And I guess I probably should do some more research and talk to my lessons teacher. My sound and tone aren't problems, my main problems come from distorting rythems, and I know a mouthpiece doesn't fix that in any way (I need to use my metronome a LOT more). I was just thinking about changing mouthpieces this summer because like most, if not all musicians, I am always looking to expand on my capabilities and improve my playing, and if a new mouthpiece would help that, then great. And I do get what y'all are saying about just sticking with what you know/like, and I certainly don't want to get on the "mouthpiece merry go round." (Speaking of that, we actually got a piece in band today called Merry-Go Round and it has a pretty cool euphonium part in it) So I think I need to just go and do some more research and discuss it with my lessons teacher, like y'all said. But if anyone has any more suggestions, advice, etc., feel free to tell me. Once again, thanks everyone for all of the help. I really appreciate it!

[keithbarton]

Advice wanted on purchasing new mouthpiece

I understand that Harold Brasch played the mouthpiece that came with his B&H Imperial, he didn't put much stock in which mouthpiece to use. Listen to how wonderful he sounded! Myself, I went to the 51D, but obtained a Lehman mouthpiece and I won't go back to the 51D.