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Thread: Compensating system diagram

  1. Compensating system diagram

    Hello all;
    I'm looking for the patent for the 4 valve compensating system, in particular, the diagrams. I've found the Blaikley system patent

    http://www.google.com/patents/US2165...216595#PPP1,M1

    but it does not include the 4th valve.

    Anyone know where to find that?

    Joe

  2. #2
    That's an interesting question. I don't know, but I'll see what I can figure out.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
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  3. I have looked through the Google patent searches, but I can't seem to stumble on the winning combination of terms to get the appropriate search. Articles I've looked at reference Dr. Blaikley, but never get to the 4 valve combination, and I can't seem to find a good reference of when that actually happened. Some time in the 30's? When did the first 3+1 compensating horn appear?

    Joe

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by misterjmiller View Post
    I have looked through the Google patent searches, but I can't seem to stumble on the winning combination of terms to get the appropriate search. Articles I've looked at reference Dr. Blaikley, but never get to the 4 valve combination, and I can't seem to find a good reference of when that actually happened. Some time in the 30's? When did the first 3+1 compensating horn appear?
    1870s

  5. #5
    A friend from the U.K. suggests you try here:

    http://www.horniman.ac.uk/collection...t/term-1015782

    He says:
    "I would imagine the Horniman Museum would have those as they house the entire B&H archive from Edgeware."

    If you can't find it on the website, you could try to contact them. Their total collection has 350,000 items and they are not all online.
    Last edited by davewerden; 08-31-2015 at 04:40 PM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  6. Dave,

    I just sent you an official Boosey & Hawkes document via email. It is dated 1953 and titled "The Boosey and Hawkes Compensating System Fully Explained." While it does not have a simplified diagram of the 4 valve system, it does have all of the details and math behind both 3 and 4 valve compensating. Perhaps this will answer the OP's questions.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  7. #7
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    If it's the patent for the 4-valve system you're looking for, your failure to find it MAY be because it doesn't exist. This is purely speculation on my part, and I haven't done any searching myself, but I would not be surprised if the patent for the 3-valve system also covers the case of a 4-valve (5-valve, or ...) system.

    This really depends on how the "claims" are stated. But I would expect that they'd be stated in such a way that the basic feature patented is the "recirculation" of the air path through the valves in order to achieve the desired effect. If this is so, then there would be no specific need to file a separate patent for a 4-valve system.

    If the patent does exist, you should likely be able to find it by looking for patents that reference the 3-valve version -- since that would be "prior art" for any 4-valve version. The prior art would need to be mentioned and a clear account made of how the new mechanism differs from it in a significant way.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    If it's the patent for the 4-valve system you're looking for, your failure to find it MAY be because it doesn't exist. This is purely speculation on my part, and I haven't done any searching myself, but I would not be surprised if the patent for the 3-valve system also covers the case of a 4-valve (5-valve, or ...) system...
    I almost suggested that as well, but I don't know enough about how patents work. However, your logic later in your post makes sense, and I suppose a smart patent author would try to write it to allow expansion in the future.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    You want the patent to be specific enough to be granted, and the claims (which are really the heart of it) to be clear enough to justify any patent infringement actions you would be able to take. But you want it to be general enough to cover all the reasonable cases, anticipating these to the degree that you can. Also, patents are expensive. So you want to avoid additional expense in filing more than necessary. Sometimes you have to be very specific -- as in the case where you're patenting something like a molecule. But even in those cases, you attempt to make the description as broad as you can in terms of the structure being patented -- blocking the possibility that someone can make use of your innovative structure by embedding it in something else or changing or adding some "insignificant" part. It's an art.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. I does make you wonder though. The 3 versus 4 valve systems are so visually different, particularly with the addition of the 3rd valve compensating slide, which is completely absent on the three valve version. There's a patent for the Marzan turning slide placement

    https://www.google.com/patents/US368...IVBFyICh0CGQCZ

    which would seem to be just a different wrap, ergonomic, etc. The actual mechanics of the 4th valve system is totally different, and absent from the initial Blaikley patent grant.

    https://www.google.com/patents/US216...IVCTiICh3i3wqo



    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    You want the patent to be specific enough to be granted, and the claims (which are really the heart of it) to be clear enough to justify any patent infringement actions you would be able to take. But you want it to be general enough to cover all the reasonable cases, anticipating these to the degree that you can. Also, patents are expensive. So you want to avoid additional expense in filing more than necessary. Sometimes you have to be very specific -- as in the case where you're patenting something like a molecule. But even in those cases, you attempt to make the description as broad as you can in terms of the structure being patented -- blocking the possibility that someone can make use of your innovative structure by embedding it in something else or changing or adding some "insignificant" part. It's an art.

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