Instrument doubling

[Roger]

I know many euphoniumists double on tuba or trombone, but how about trumpet? I started on trumpet in Jr high and switched to baritone horn in the 9th grade and stayed with it. I'm 74 now and playing euph, but am thinking about picking up a trumpet just for my own enjoyment. Will playing that small mouthpiece from time to time negatively affect my euph embouchure?

[davewerden]

Some people could double on trumpet without bothering their chops, but I'm not sure everyone can. I don't think it would work for me, for example.

The trumpet requires more air pressure, less air volume, and tighter chops in general. Any of those factors could mess you up if you can't separate the physical and mental requirements of each.

The "right" person may be able to do this successfully. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try it for a while and see what happens. Just keep an eye out for conflicts between the two instruments' requirements and the output you get.

The British artist James Morrison covers the whole realm of brass instruments. Somewhere on YouTube is a video of him playing every instrument in a brass band...all during the same piece. That's pretty fast switching! But I'm not sure his euphonium sound is ideal.

[Roger]

Thanks, David. I'll try to find the video, but I'm no James Morrison, haha. I might try it and just stay aware.

[davewerden]

Thanks, David. I'll try to find the video, but I'm no James Morrison, haha. I might try it and just stay aware.

You're welcome! And if you find that video, please post the link here. I looked and must not have chosen the right search words.

[franz]

Maybe this? https://youtu.be/0uuus2cXzRY

[davewerden]

franz, that's a good one, but there is another. The one I remember was during a concert and he was on stage in front of the brass band. Thanks for posting, though. The other one may have been pulled by now or something.

[MarChant]

I know of a video where James Morrison plays every instrument (except drums) in a Big Band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T-V7CA1Ksg

Obviously, this video is doctored, he does not have that many siblings...

But here's a video of him playing trumpet, trombone and flugelhorn at the same concert, together with a Brass band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6wrgcdZmXk

(it is an edited video, there's also a Euphonium and a Baritone in front of him, but he isn't shown playing those)

[notaverygoodname]

I'm not a pro or anything, but I own a substantial collection that I play for my own entertainment frequently. My embouchure is most suited for alto, but I'll play whatever I want (darn it!).

In my experience, I've never done anything that hurt my tenor embouchure. The first one to take a hit for me has always been Trumpet. Contributing factors might be my disdain for the instrument and the fact that I was never great at it. I never really enjoyed Bb Trumpet so I don't play it very much. I do enjoy playing my Ventil-Fanfare from time to time, but as I've tried to expand my range to Eb Tuba, I find my stamina really suffering on it. Sure, I can still hit a high concert Bb on it, but not all day. It wasn't long ago that I could squeak out an Eb6, but it's not happening today.

[enhite]

This thread reminded me of a recital by Dr. Ben Pierce (professor of low brass at the University of Arkansas) followed by discussion at Ball State University a few years ago. Dr. Pierce certainly proved he is a virtuoso on both euphonium and tuba. After the recital, someone asked Dr. Pierce how he managed his practice on both instruments. He responded that he played euphonium until his lips grew tired then picked up the tuba.
Perhaps Dr. Pierce’s practice method of playing the smaller instrument first might work for you if you choose to add trumpet to your instruments.

[ghmerrill]

To introduce another dimension -- and I hope no one is offended by this -- and with the full disclosure that I'm 72 and zeroing in on 73 ...

My experience in several community bands is that ... let me put this delicately ... the trumpet seems to get a lot more challenging to play in tune as one ages. A LOT -- just based on my observations. A lot of people in their 60s seem to be able to do it okay. But I can think of only one guy I personally know in his 70s who could pretty reliably play in tune. He was a long-time member of one of the US service (field, I think) bands, but in the past year I notice that he's moved from playing regularly in one or two organizations to subbing. All the other 70+ (and some were in their late 80s!) trumpet players I've played with just couldn't sustain reasonable intonation.

I've had similar experience with trombone players (section mates). There's a point where they just won't go near a 1st part and struggle with some of the 2nd.

I'd love to get a flugelhorn and try to play it. But based on my own experience playing high 2nd trombone and 1st trombone parts, I know I wouldn't have a prayer of doing it well at this point. And if I did, I'd expect it to degrade in just a few years.

As I've said in another thread, I don't want to be that guy: the one who can't manage to play in tune. My own recommendation for doubling at this age is not to go in the direction of one of the high brass. If you're inclined to, then definitely first try it out for your own enjoyment before taking it on the road. I may still get that flugelhorn at some point. But I doubt it would ever be leaving the house.

[davewerden]

This thread reminded me of a recital by Dr. Ben Pierce (professor of low brass at the University of Arkansas) followed by discussion at Ball State University a few years ago. Dr. Pierce certainly proved he is a virtuoso on both euphonium and tuba. After the recital, someone asked Dr. Pierce how he managed his practice on both instruments. He responded that he played euphonium until his lips grew tired then picked up the tuba.
Perhaps Dr. Pierce’s practice method of playing the smaller instrument first might work for you if you choose to add trumpet to your instruments.

Beware of a basic difference in Dr. Pierce's experience. I have also doubled on tuba and found it quite compatible with euphonium. Both are conical, both need "warm air," and both require chops that can vibrate in a relaxed manner. Now, within the trumpet world I'm sure relaxed vibration is taught to warm the tone, but it is relaxation within a much different overall context. I'm a believer that the BEST euphonium double is tuba (and vice versa). I also play trombone and did so in the CG jazz band. It was less compatible, even though I used the same mouthpiece, because of the cylindrical nature of the trombone.

[adrian_quince]

I know many euphoniumists double on tuba or trombone, but how about trumpet? I started on trumpet in Jr high and switched to baritone horn in the 9th grade and stayed with it. I'm 74 now and playing euph, but am thinking about picking up a trumpet just for my own enjoyment. Will playing that small mouthpiece from time to time negatively affect my euph embouchure?

I can't speak to the age factor, but I will say that playing trumpet only occasionally is more likely to be frustrating than fun. As someone who has doubled on both regularly for the past decade or so (after playing trumpet full-time for a number of years), I will say that I can't go more than 2 days without playing trumpet without my playing losing something. On euphonium, for me that window is closer to 5 days.

With all that said, one nice thing about being in an area that's sheltering in place because of Coronavirus is that I'm spending less time commuting to the office and more time practicing.

[John Morgan]

... I'm a believer that the BEST euphonium double is tuba (and vice versa). I also play trombone and did so in the CG jazz band. It was less compatible, even though I used the same mouthpiece, because of the cylindrical nature of the trombone.

What you said about the best euphonium double being a tuba is a comment I would not have agreed with in the past. I play euphonium as my main instrument (after starting on trumpet in my early years). I also play trombone a lot in a couple of orchestras and tuba in some church ensembles and a brass quintet. It certainly wasn't intuitive to me that tuba and euphonium were better doublers than euphonium and trombone. But they are for me, too. And I don't think I realized why until I read your last sentence above. Duh, trombone is more cylindrical!!! That is the key. I use the same mouthpiece on both horns, yet I find the euphonium so much easier to play than the trombone (some of that is I spend a lot of time on the euphonium, not as much on the trombone). But the trombone is definitely harder to play well for me than the euphonium. The tuba, even though the mouthpiece is bigger (I use a Wick 3XL on the recommendation of Gary Merrill), is easier for me in some respects than the trombone, which I play much more.

[daniel76309]

After experimenting with a cheap trumpet and a cheap flugelhorn I resold both of those and got a really good flugelhorn a few months ago, and am enjoying playing it. It is a slightly used Adams F1, which I think I got a really good deal on, on Ebay. It is challenging and sometimes frustrating, but not significantly more so than it was a few years ago when I was trying to get my euphonium chops back after decades of not playing. I have the same problem now as then, i.e. range and endurance, only more so. I do see improvement though when I keep at it with multiple short sessions each day. i have a long way to go, but I do think I am close to trying to do a special music in church on flugel. I have been neglecting my euphonium at times, purposely so as to make progress on flugelhorn. Then when I go back to euphonium, it "feels funny" at first, and I would say tone and accuracy are a little off...but if I stick with euphonium for a day or two it all comes back. I don't know if there will be long term problems, but so far it doesn't seem like it.

[dsurkin]

[snip]The British artist James Morrison covers the whole realm of brass instruments. Somewhere on YouTube is a video of him playing every instrument in a brass band...all during the same piece. That's pretty fast switching! But I'm not sure his euphonium sound is ideal.

I adore his trumpet playing, and while the music he plays on trombone is stellar, I'm not enamored of his tone on trombone, either.

I pick up my trumpet once in a blue moon (usually to add a part to a home recording). I accept the fact that I will not be able to play higher than concert D5, and that I may have to use Melodyne (similar to AutoTune) to help my intonation. I did once use Melodyne to raise a passage up an octave (I was trying to record a big band chart I had written) and the results were, um, interesting.