Buying a tuba tomorrow

[KKORO]

Last year I decided to learn an instrument. I have a music degree in theory and composition and taught school choirs for many years before a long stint as a school administrator. Never learned an instrument until last year.

Last December I bought a King 2280 Euphonium and started practicing almost every day since. I've played some in community bands and a few solos in church. When I started, I used treble clef because I played French Horn in jr. hi and, so, knew those fingerings. I told myself to wait a year and then start playing in bass clef. The year is up.

Tomorrow I'm buying a tuba. I have a friend who is a tuba pro and long time school band director who has convinced me I will enjoy the tuba.

I'm fairly credible on easy bass clef music (hymns and Christmas carols), but have a hard time with anything harder. When I'm reading bass clef, I'm actually transposing the music in my head. Anything that is at all difficult throws me off entirely.

So, finally, a few questions. How best do I get out of the habit of transposing when I'm playing bass clef? I've got the Tuba Arban's ordered and suspect I just need to practice, practice practice, but other suggestions will be appreciated. Also, is there any technique to starting the Tuba and keeping my Euphonium embouchure? Finally, I enjoyed trying different mouthpieces on my Euphonium. I'm not sure what mouthpiece will be on the Tuba I'm buying. Any suggestions for a Tuba mouthpiece? I'm playing a 51D and a Wick 4ab on my Euphonium depending on the music I'm playing. I play the 51D most of the time because of the better tone I get. I play the Wick when I play something with a high tessitura.

Thanks, KKORO

[davewerden]

RE: Bass Clef as a habit. Just keep doing it! Going through the Arban book is a good idea. I learned treble first, and still today that is the clef in my brain. But in late HS or early college I learned how to transpose a bass clef part in my head. At some point over the years it just became natural to read the music and I was no longer doing a transposition in my head. However, If I play a bass clef middle C (1st valve) I'm still thinking D in my head. But functionally I am a competent bass clef reader. I really don't care if you hand me a part in bass or treble for most things. For really tough solos I'll reach for the treble clef part because it's my "first language."

[RickF]

I too read TC and struggle with BC. Don't know if this would help or not, but Dr. Gail Robertson suggested for me to get a BC copy of a solo I had memorized and read from the BC part. It helped some, but I think I'm getting to the point often referred to as,"too old to learn new tricks".

Good luck.

[KKORO]

Mouthpieces I should try?

KKORO

[Asianeuph]

Most beginners start with a Helleberg 120s, it's a pretty standard mouthpiece to try first. Coming from euph, you might like the Helleberg 7B a bit better. The Perantucci PT-44 is also a popular mouthpiece.

[ghmerrill]

I started playing tuba in 1989. I'm totally self-taught. Previously (elementary school through college) I played saxophone and doubled on flute. Stopped playing in graduate school. I went up to the tuba exchange and bought a used Yamaha YEB-321s from Vince. Just sat down and started playing it. No problems, but it of course required some determination and practice. I love low brass.

In terms of converting to BC (which I had NEVER read before getting my tuba) from TC (which I had spent over 15 years on), my suggestion is this: just do it. STOP transposing! Just play. Perhaps the best way to do this is start to do simple exercises (and scales and arppegios and etudes) AT SPEED. Start slow and work up to a higher speed. The higher speed will force you to stop transposing. You want to get your thinking out of the way of your playing. It's that simple.

Mouthpiece: Without knowing anything about your playing or your physical characteristics, I'd recommend that you get a Bach 25 or Kelly 25 mouthpiece and play on that for several months. Do NOT get a Bach 24 or 24AW. Do NOT get a Bach 18. Otherwise, a Schilke 66 might do you very well (it's my all-time go-to mouthpiece except on my Eb compensator) or a TU-17. The Kelly is really a good compromise approach in a "trial" mode. Or try to get a used Bach 25 or Schilke 66 online.

After a few months, you'll begin to have SOME idea of what the advantages/disadvantages/limitations of that mouthpiece are. But the Bach 25 it's a good all-around mouthpiece, is a good size for someone moving from trombone/baritone to tuba, and is a great beginner's mouthpiece as well. If you get the Kelly, then (a) it will be cheap, and (b) you'll always be able to use it for cold or very hot weather performances.

After those few months, get together with your tuba-playing friend and talk about mouthpieces. Warning: Many, many tuba players use a mouthpiece that is simply too big for them. Beware of that. Bigger is not at all necessarily better when it comes to tuba mouthpieces.

[Davidus1]

I would take the advice of your friend on a mouthpiece if he is a tuba player. Depending upon the type of tuba you buy you may have to experiment to get the right mouthpiece. Bowl shape vs funnel shape can make a difference in sound, response and intonation so try as many as you can. Hopefully you can get a teacher to guide you. Best wishes!

[cpoet89]

I too started reading treble clef (former trumpet player), but then switched to bass clef shortly before attending college as a euphonium major. Only advice is to try and avoid treble clef music as much as possible and force yourself to read bass clef.

And be patient! I was able to read bass clef fairly comfortably after maybe 6 months, but it honestly probably took me a full 2 years before I was completely fluent in it. I would always struggle in my scale juries because I would always mix up the transpositions in my head.

It even messed me up in my piano playing! I remember sitting in my jury for my piano minor and being asked to play a 2 octave Ab scale. So I play it, thinking it went very well, but when I look back at my professor, she has a very confused look on her face. She then says "That was a great Gb scale....But I would still like to hear an Ab scale." It took me a few seconds to realize what she meant, and what I had actually done. Luckily, I still passed my jury

[dsurkin]

[snip] I have a music degree in theory and composition and taught school choirs for many years before a long stint as a school administrator. [snip]

I'm fairly credible on easy bass clef music (hymns and Christmas carols), but have a hard time with anything harder. When I'm reading bass clef, I'm actually transposing the music in my head. Anything that is at all difficult throws me off entirely.

So, finally, a few questions. How best do I get out of the habit of transposing when I'm playing bass clef? [snip]

When you were studying theory and composition, did you do much work with alto and tenor clefs? I, too, started on trumpet, and I read only treble clef until fifth or sixth grade. Tenor clef and Bb-transposing treble clef match up spaces and lines, as I'm sure you know (you just have to keep track of accidentals, like B-natural or E-natural). The nifty thing about learning the clefs is that then you can sight-transpose from Bb parts, Eb parts, F parts, and concert parts.

I wish you luck with this - I learned the clefs over half a century ago, and I've really forgotten how difficult it was.

[iiipopes]

I added tuba/sousaphone to trumpet as a freshman in high school for marching band in the fall of 1976. Having had piano for a few years, I knew bass clef, so all I really had to do was add the fingerings to the notes.

I found no "easy" or "shortcut" to learning bass clef fingerings. I just did it with lots of practice and sight reading.

[KKORO]

Mouthpiece: Without knowing anything about your playing or your physical characteristics, I'd recommend that you get a Bach 25 or Kelly 25 mouthpiece and play on that for several months. Do NOT get a Bach 24 or 24AW. Do NOT get a Bach 18. Otherwise, a Schilke 66 might do you very well (it's my all-time go-to mouthpiece except on my Eb compensator) or a TU-17. The Kelly is really a good compromise approach in a "trial" mode. Or try to get a used Bach 25 or Schilke 66 online.
)

Thanks for the info. I picked up the Tuba today. It came with a Bach 18. My luck, eh! Since I enjoyed trying different mouthpieces with my Euphonium, I'll be looking for a used Bach 25. The 18 does seem a bit big, but I think that's because I used to the Euphonium.

KKORO

[KKORO]

When you were studying theory and composition, did you do much work with alto and tenor clefs? I, too, started on trumpet, and I read only treble clef until fifth or sixth grade. Tenor clef and Bb-transposing treble clef match up spaces and lines, as I'm sure you know (you just have to keep track of accidentals, like B-natural or E-natural). The nifty thing about learning the clefs is that then you can sight-transpose from Bb parts, Eb parts, F parts, and concert parts.

I wish you luck with this - I learned the clefs over half a century ago, and I've really forgotten how difficult it was.

Yes, I learned all those, but that was half a century ago and knowing the concepts and composing is a lot different than getting the correct fingerings.

Anyway, I'm enjoying becoming an instrumentalist in my old age.

KKORO

[ghmerrill]

Thanks for the info. I picked up the Tuba today. It came with a Bach 18. My luck, eh! Since I enjoyed trying different mouthpieces with my Euphonium, I'll be looking for a used Bach 25. The 18 does seem a bit big, but I think that's because I used to the Euphonium.

KKORO

There's nothing wrong with a Bach 18, but mouthpiece selection is highly idiosyncratic and really depends on your own facial structure. For that reason (and as a first mouthpiece) you may find it a bit large. But try it and see how it works.

I really don't like Bach mouthpieces -- preferring Schilke (if Helleberg style) or Miraphone (if bowl/German style). But I find the Bach 25 okay and it's on the "smaller" side for tuba mouthpieces -- so a good starting point. Often, tuba players go to larger and larger mouthpieces because (a) they believe that they should "use as large a mouthpiece as you can", (b) they want more "power" (volume), or (c) they are chasing a certain "organ-like tone" in the lower registers. Each of these goals has a certain fundamental problem.

Last year, my section mate went to a HUGE Perantucci mouthpiece on her Miraphone 186 in order to make her contra bass range easier and fuller. It does that -- as a quick fix -- but she totally lost the high range and now avoids playing anything above the F on the bass staff. With a larger mouthpiece, it's also easier to overblow and "blat" out notes -- particularly on medium to small size tubas. You lose control. And it's often difficult for players to control their pitch and intonation. And a mouthpiece that's too large is just fatiguing to use in long sessions.

Only experience (and some feedback from others who hear you play, and recording yourself) will tell you what's best for you. And you can expect it to take at least a number of months (if not a couple of years) before you feel comfortable enough to know what you really want in terms of a mouthpiece. It also depends on both you and the horn. I love the Schilke 66 for BBb tubas. But now on my Eb horn I'm using a Wick 3XL. I was using a 2XL for a couple of years, but I backed off to the 3XL because I was finding the 2XL too fatiguing to control and not giving me the easy and accurate intonation I want. However, I doubt that I would ever use that mouthpiece on a BBb tuba.

[iiipopes]

If the actual size of the cup of the 18 that came with the tuba is not difficult for the OP to control, but takes more air than the OP feels comfortable with due to its larger throat, the Kanstul version of the 18 is not like the Bach version. It has the real 1.26 diameter cup, as opposed to all the copies and the notorious inconsistency of Bach that have a cup approaching a 1.28 (yes, that .02 does make a difference, depending on facial structure), and has the smaller .328 throat for better breath control for us mere mortals than the Bach 18, and a little deeper cup than the Bach 18 for a little bit more fundamental in the tone. In short, the Kanstul version is more like what ghmerrill is recommending.

But he's right: there are so many more mouthpieces out there. Many folks start with the Conn Helleberg, either the deep 120S or the moderate 7 cup, which also have roughly a 1.26 diameter; good middle-of-the-road mouthpieces to start that aren't too expensive, and of which there are even lesser expensive copies that are generally well received for their price.

All that said, I have a friend who is primarily a trombone player, who doubles on tuba, and as ghmerrill suggests, uses a Bach 25 as his tuba mouthpiece. I have listened to him in concert, and he gets a really good tone and response from it.

And now for something completely different: Kelly makes a lexan 25. I have one of their 18's for my outdoor tuba and souzy playing, and they are great for the price. I believe every brass player, unless the player uses a lexan rim on a 2- or 3-piece modular mouthpiece, should have one of the Kelly mouthpieces for inclement weather, or at least as a spare or a buzzing mouthpiece to keep in the car.

[ghmerrill]

I also have a Kelly (lexan) 25, and sanded down the shank on it for to fit my Buescher 1925 Eb horn. I don't use it any longer since I got the Dillon shank adapter and now use my TU-17 (which in some sense is just a really expensive version of a really good 25). I need to get another so I can use it in cold weather on my primary tuba. For my euphonium and bass trombone, I have DE mouthpieces with lexan rims.